Posts by Andy Dufresne

80

Lots Of Whining And Complaining About Us JW's

by Deaconblues1914 in

in reading these posts, it sounds like a lot of you are very jealous of the wt.

society’s annual income and the money they/we have in the bank.

jehovah has indeed blessed us.

Andy Dufresne

Sheesh. Has he gone yet?

<*checks to see the door didn't hit Deaconblues on the ass on the way out*>

<*beckons the dancing girls in through the other door*>

13

I just don't have the lies to give...

by Captain Schmideo2 in

jw
friends

a friend of mine (a jw) delivered a premature baby, and the outlook is grim.. she is posting updates on facebook, and where everyone else is offering prayers for them both, and how "jehovah loves them both very much", and i got...nothing.

nothing that would be comforting.

big man in the sky has zero to do with this, only medical science and chance will have any bearing on this.i wish i could lie convincingly to her and to myself and have something nice to say.

Andy Dufresne

(+1 what freddo said.)

I can give some input from the parents' point of view, as our child was born at 23 weeks. (Hence I've blathered on a bit here.)

In short: don't sweat it, Capt. Schmido. We got lots of platitudes - they came across as flippant rather than reassuring - so, be genuine and avoid them, I say. People are always full of trite things, but few offer actual practical help....

SO: Stand out from the crowd, as suggested above, by doing something actual/practical. Even the simplest things will make the world of difference, but please bear in mind the parents will be hunkered down into protection mode. Don't take this as rejection of your help or friendship - which is something that happened to us, and which we then blamed ourselves for.

If you live close enough, ask when would be best to visit for literally 5-10 minutes to drop off some pre-cooked food, or offer to help do some housework, shopping, errands.
If they want to just sit there and hold your hand, hug, vent, cry, or even say/do nothing - just *be there* for that. Their minds will be racing non-stop, so sometimes NOT talking about the situation (or anything at all!) might be the best thing.

Long term, when baby comes home (being positive here) they will be extra exhausted, more than with a typical newborn. Again practical help is what is needed.

In the first couple of months/years it's likely they will be over-protective of the child, so if they may turn down offers to pass the baby over/around at meetings. If you still go to the KH, don't use this as a reason to pull further and further away from them and the child, even with (who I thought were) close friends. We were never rejecting them - we we constantly backpeddling. No one tried to get to know & accept the "new us", or our son's already obvious personality

Likewise, if as a result of the prematurity if the child has learning/behavioural difficulties or disability, again don't be afraid to keep offering help and get to know them.
Don't distance yourself if the parents (albeit shortsightedly) try to be self-sufficient. If you ask, a closed "is there anything I can do", it's quite likely they will say no as when you have a prem baby you just kinda "get on" with it.

Rather, *you* think of specific things to ask to help with, for example

"can I help to/can you show me how to change such a tiny nappy?"
"Can you show how best to hold him"
"Do you like <food type> and can i bring some over?"

False friends either glare at the family when the kid is extra noisy or projectile vomits in the meetings, or will laugh as the parent runs past them after the kid at the kingdom/assembly and remark that they've "got their hands full there", (oh really?! Thanks for that insight.) without doing anything to help stop the kid.

Shitty elders will make sure to check you're still keeping up on your personal study. #really
Really shitty elders will give special needs talks about parents controlling kids in meetings, and/or banish you to the infamous backroom...#yesreally

Oh: I forgot. We did get one bowl of carrot soup from the elder's wife that lived next door but one. That was nice.

24

A Believer....... A naughty, naughty sheep....

by DATA-DOG in

"a believer" seems to be our new apologist/disobedient sheep.

"a believer" ignores the "spirit-directed"/"bible-based" commands of the gb/fds!

shame on you, "a believer"!!!!

Andy Dufresne

Not just a naughty sheep..... he's baaaaaaaaaaaa-d.

Sorry: I just couldn't resist. Oh, shut up: it's Christmas!!

8oD

41

They Don't Have A Secret Elder's Book

by pale.emperor in

"they don't have a secret elder's book" so said my mother.

"all of our publications are open to everyone.

we all have the same information and nothing is hidden in this religion.".

Andy Dufresne

"“Secrecy is the keystone to all tyranny. Not force, but secrecy and censorship. When any government or church for that matter, undertakes to say to its subjects, "This you may not read, this you must not know," the end result is tyranny and oppression, no matter how holy the motives."
Robert A. Heinlein

25

Raising kids in a split faith household

by rathernotsay in

jw
friends

hi guys, don't know if this is the right place to ask but id like to hear other peoples experiences with raising kids in a household with split faiths.

just for a bit of a back story, my wife and i have been married for comming up 6 years.

we have 3 kids, 2 boys aged 5 and 3 and a 8 week old girl.

Andy Dufresne

Being in the same position myself, some of the comments here have been very helpful and reassuring. Thank you everyone.

I always feel a failure when my bright 9 y.o. spouts any JW cr4p - but it's very difficult balancing being forthright against the defensive reaction the cult personality (even in a 9 y.o.!) kicks up.

23

Drifting what i've feared has started already...

by pale.emperor in

im in the process of drifting out.

my entire family are jw's.

my wife and her family are too.

Andy Dufresne

Hey Pale Emperor

I empathise with you a lot - I was in very much the same situation and with many the same thoughts.

"Manning up" and spitting it like it is isn't always a best solution if you want to avoid conflict IMHO. I agree with the idea that you DO need to tell elders to step off.... but there are ways and there are **ways** if you know what I mean. It does you no favours to come across aggressive unless you NEED to be, in my personal view.

If you want to leave AND preserve your family it is a VERY long and arduous process, as already said. Personally, I very much envy people who have been able to make a clean break.

Firstly, you need to understand the nature of the organisation. With an open mind, read Combatting Cult Mind Control by Steve Hassan. I think you can even get it on kindle. The 25th? Anniversary Edition is now out, and has extra info which you will find interesting to compare with how JW.Org is now developing online content.

See if your other doubts and criticism correlate at all with the examples & identifiers of cults (aka the BITE model) that Hassan presents. The very doubts you express in your OP are your starting point - IMHO they are all elements of control.

Next - **plan** your exit. Your fade/draw away must be gradual enough to not set alarms ringing if moving to a new town or DA'ing sin't an option.

Unless you UTTERLY trust your wife, DO NOT openly discuss your doubts because many JWs will immediately blow the whistle if they smell "apostasy". Remember that in the minds of some JWs even SPEAKING doubts is apostasy, not just SPREADING them.
You need to be clear in your own mind WHY you are fading, even if you don't use this info to explain it to other JWs.
RESEARCH RESEARCH RESEARCH. Truth stands up under investigation. It doesn't necessarily led to becoming an atheist either. But without "remaking you mind" by looking at BOTH sides you will never be sure and the "indoctrination" of meetings, assemblies etc will be more effective counteracting the expansion of knowledge you are allowing yourself.

Remember too that you might be labelled "weak". You are NOT the weak one. You are the strong one for facing to the challenge of proving the facts. It's far easier to give in and immerse yourself only in one point of view and suppress your own intelligence/ curiousity.

As you discover more about "TTATT" (the truth about the truth) you may find yourself conflicted and emotionally compromised. Many people go through grief stages including depression and anger. Again, depending on how much you trust your wife, be cautious how you vent these emotions.
Either way, you may wish to use any illness/anxiety/depression as a reason for your declining enthusiasm. This helps deflect prying JWs. Many offer to "help" - but this means re-convincing you of the "party line". Rather than putting a band aid over those doubts I'd suggest you pick at them...it's painful but a good way to get rid of any poisonous "puss" and heal/get your OWN understanding from a plethora of facts and viewpoints that are out there.

If your are chased by "well meaning" elders, tell them you are not in a fit state to discuss any issues/problems. Tell them you need time get your head around things. Tell them YOU know where THEY are - politely thank them for their interest and say YOU will be in touch if you need them. Softly softly. Withdraw from comments, "privledges", reduce service, say you're too unwell for talks & items. Miss meetings with gradually increasing frequency. You may find that a certain number of missed meetings/weeks is a "trigger point" for you group elder's "concerned" phone call. For me, it was 8 meetings missed in a row, so I'd make sure to be see every 7th meeting then made the gap longer and longer.

IMHO The MOST important thing is for you to start to build relationships, friendships, support networks NOW with good people who are non-JWs. You WILL need to vent to someone - although you can always do that here, or on several (secret) growing Facebook groups. This way too, if things come to a head and an entirely conflict-free fade isn't successful you will have means of emotional support if you do end up being shunned.

Sorry to ramble on - a long slow successful fade is VERY difficult. Be patient and be subtle if you truly want to keep you family.

You have my very best wishes.

21

Suppose I ought to introduce myself.....

by Andy Dufresne in

jw
friends

i've left a couple of semi-"humorous" remarks, but not yet said a proper hello....but firstly thank you, to all, for this site and all its comments.i have been lurking on this site for 4-5 years, awake for 5-6 years and seriously fading for the last 4 years.

i am now "out" and widely considered "out" by the congregation but due being very cautious and playing a very long game, (and having a wife who understand the repercussions of blowing the whistle on the few viewpoints i have discussed with her) i have not been df'd of da'd.

this forum has been a crutch and guide as well as helping me wake - and the humour many on here use has been a welcome relief.

Andy Dufresne

Thanks for the welcome everyone.

Diogenesister - I meant to LIKE your comment: accidently clicked dislike and now I can't change it. Can't promise to do you tax, but I will share a cold beer on a hot roof sometime. ;-)

In response:

Heaven - there wasn't 1 single thing that led

In the end it was a critical mass of several things... although my the "mouth hang open" moments were learning about (1) UN NGO status vs Malawi (2) the blatent quote mining about stauros in the reasoning book alongside (MAIN) critical reasoning about the whole flood myth. This was the nub, to be honest. The loose threads I pulled, after which everything started to unravel.

The irony was that in a shepherding call an elder actually commended me for doing independent research as I said I had found it reasonable that the size of the ark was comparable to some cargo containers today which bolstered the myth. He quoted the "keep on proving" scripture - so I did. Until I completely disproved it to myself... partly due to some threads on here and jwfacts. MOSTLY by doing general research/cross checking facts. It took a while for me to be convinced that you angry and mentally diseased types could be trusted. LOL

Steve2 - I am sure "unofficially" I've been marked, yes. With some Dubs, the conversation is more awkward & stilted than before. I had an elder who works in a neighbouring office but from a sister congregation react very strangely to my greeting recently - as if he didn't know whether to shun me or not. I took this as a win, since it appears if this is how I am considered it's making me less "accountable" to the congregation meaning I can be less secretive about associating with DF'd friends etc. For my wife's sake I don't rub her face in celebrating birthdays, xmas etc. The kids will get their gifts a days or two before or after with statements "so: this isn't for your birthday at all. In any way. What-so-ever. Nuh-uh. No way. At all. Not. For your birthday. Isn't." <WINK>

I don't get invited to "gatherings" any more, but would likely refuse anyway. I deliberately moved away from them, even removing JWs from my social media under the excuse of "it for business use". Took control.

I don't like crowds - I'm a "secret introvert" - and get drained by socialising. However, over the years I learned to "perform" and fake extroversion very well. I would endure conventions, meetings & parties as a means to fit in & conform.

I don't need to now: I live my social life on my terms now and am mentally healthier for it. I admin there are some friends I miss... but there comes a point where you have to look after yourself first.

I do hope to contribute to threads ad-hoc.... just expect random things here and there where I think I'm being funny. ;-)

See y'all round.

21

Suppose I ought to introduce myself.....

by Andy Dufresne in

jw
friends

i've left a couple of semi-"humorous" remarks, but not yet said a proper hello....but firstly thank you, to all, for this site and all its comments.i have been lurking on this site for 4-5 years, awake for 5-6 years and seriously fading for the last 4 years.

i am now "out" and widely considered "out" by the congregation but due being very cautious and playing a very long game, (and having a wife who understand the repercussions of blowing the whistle on the few viewpoints i have discussed with her) i have not been df'd of da'd.

this forum has been a crutch and guide as well as helping me wake - and the humour many on here use has been a welcome relief.

Andy Dufresne

Well: hello everybody. I've left a couple of semi-"humorous" remarks, but not yet said a proper hello....

But firstly THANK YOU, to all, for this site and all its comments.

I have been lurking on this site for 4-5 years, awake for 5-6 years and seriously fading for the last 4 years. I am now "out" and widely considered "out" by the congregation but due being very cautious and playing a very long game, (and having a wife who understand the repercussions of blowing the whistle on the few viewpoints I have discussed with her) I have not been DF'd of DA'd. This forum has been a crutch and guide as well as helping me wake - and the humour many on here use has been a welcome relief. (along with jwfacts and jwsurvey - like them or loath them they have helped me and that's the important thing.)

It has been a long and stressful journey, but one which was right for my circumstances. I am working through a long and on going depression which was made worse by realising TTATT as well as many other circumstances. However, it proved a good tool to get myself away from meetings and service....everything by degrees. So at least that illness had a bright side.

My departure has been gradual but definitive. I am never bothered by elders and get a rare "encouraging" call from a sweet old lady in the congregation. Old friends pass on "we miss you" messages via the wife, but they clearly don't miss so much that they've ever picked up a phone.

It's even been said when they learn I have objections but don't share them "well that's good / considerate as at least we can still talk to him in the street."

Just yesterday the PO gave 2 copies of the blood card to my wife, and when she said "Ok I'm pretty sure my Andy won't want one, but at least I'll have a spare",and the PO (she tells me) didn't even bat an eyelid. I am still cautious, but feel more free and more bold every day.

A little part of me wishes I'd had the courage to stand up and tell my former friends clearly TTATT, however the risk of losing my lovely (albeit blinded and stubborn!) wife & kids was too great. To counter this, I anti witness to non-JWs whenever appropriate, and using the "softly-softly" approach will often draw comparisons between JW & other cults when in conversation with friends & family I care for. I'm looking forward to anit-witnessing on a cart where they won't know me, some day.

While my wife is still very much in, and has told me that under no circumstances does she want to taste the "red pill", I have hope that my boy - who is a smart kid - will respond to the drips of TTATT I have been feeding him. The wife has agreed that if 13 is an appropriate age for kids to be encourage to be baptised, then it's an appropriate age for them to decide they DON'T want to be witnesses either, so in the next year or two I will be undertaking informal "anti-studies".

I don't worry too much about the propaganda my boy his getting until then, as I already know he thinks critically about it and doesn't believe lots of it. My other kid has special needs, so doesn't understand what he's taught anyway and could never make an adult decision or form a belief... I worry less about him in some ways.

I also count myself very fortunate in my long-game to not only have created a wide network of non-JW friends but also have reconnected with x-JW friends who were either DF'd or came to learn TTATT in their own right - including "John Free" on this site... our anonymity still preserved to everyone else, then! LOL.

And my forum name? Inspired by The Shawshank Redemption.... I'd like to think of myself like my namesake, taking the blows, biding my time, crawling through lots of 5h1t but hopefully leaving other inmates with a memory of someone who wasn't angry or mentally diseased.

At least I hope so.

That's it for now: be seeing you...

28

UFO's might be real.and what does it mean if they are?

by atomant in

for some reason this subject has not received much attention over the years which surprises me.theres many conspiracy theories floating around on the internet and lve done my fair share of due diligence on the matter.the school is still out on this one.l find it very hard to believe humans are the only intelligent beings out there.has anyone on this forum ever seen a ufo or experienced a close encounter?

Andy Dufresne

Surely a Close Encounter of the Third Base Kind would count a pornea? ;-) :-D

17

If you went back in time, would you be a god?

by Simon in

we just finished watching outlander which is about a woman who goes back in time ~200 years from the end of wwii.

she ends up in the scottish highlands in the middle of the jacobite uprising.

it's a great show although the last episodes were a little graphic (they make game of thrones seem like sesame street).. but it got me thinking ... if you went back in time would you in fact be the 'god' you may imagine because of your knowledge of modern technology and the future?.

Andy Dufresne

Maybe not a god, but some kind of wizard perhaps? You could even call yourself Sparlock! ;-)

Arthur C Clarke's third law = "Any sufficiently advanced technology is indistinguishable from magic".